November 30, 2015 –
Translated for Fort Russ by J. Arnoldski
[Note from J. Arnoldski: This interview with Dugin was originally published on Nov. 11, 2015. The claim that Turkey “is fighting against Assad and ISIS” is a reference to the official position of the Turkish government a month ago before subsequent revelations and events rendered such an absurd fiction. Moreover, this quote is not of Dugin himself but is clearly an extrapolation by the interviewer. The quoting of Turkey’s official stance that it is fighting ISIS might be employed in order to display the at least nominal “bipolarity” of Turkey and official Ankara’s vacillation between pursuing regional interests while remaining dependent on NATO. Either way, one may rest assured that Dugin, as confirmed by other and recent pieces, does in fact recognize that Turkey supports ISIS, and this interview has much to offer despite a confusing and contradictory sentence apparently the fault of the editor of Minval.az]
“Dugin: ‘Azerbaijan has the same meaning in Turkish geopolitics as Armenia
“There is pro-Russian sentiment in Turkey and it is very serious. Turkey depends on Russia from the point of view of tourism, economics, energy, and in many issues from the point of view of geopolitics. Therefore, Turkey will never drastically exacerbate relations with Russia, although occasionally they are not so good.”
Minval.az reports these words as stated in an interview with First Information by the Russian social activist, sociologist, and political scientist Alexander Dugin.
According to him, Russia has positions which Turkey partially agrees with and partially doesn’t. Russia supports Assad and is fighting against ISIS while Turkey fights against Assad and against ISIS.
“The Americans support the Kurds. Russia is neutral towards the Kurds, while the Turks are aggressive. It turns out that there are three different positions. They partially converge, and partially do not. Therefore the Turks in fact have many issues and complaints against us in regards to the Syrian policy of Russia. As to whether this could influence Armenia, this simply in no way can because in Erdogan’s policies Armenia simply doesn’t exist, is not a factor, and Armenia is not important for Erdogan in any way. There are certain Turkish nationalist and Kemalist circles which are fighting against too large of concessions in favor of recognizing the genocide of Armenians in global politics, but Turkey has no realistic interest in Armenia insofar as Turkey is resolving a number of other problems among which Armenia is not a primary, nor even a secondary one from the point of view of Turkish geopolitics.
Further, many in Armenia believe that Turkey fully supports Azerbaijan. this is not so because Azerbaijan, in Turkish geopolitics, has the same meaning as Armenia. In fact, it is in a third or fourth rank problem. Turkey is fully focused on its national interests. Azerbaijan and the Karabakh conflict as well as the ancient problems between Armenians and Turks do not interest Turkey at all. At one point, the Armenian factor was used by Turkey in the era of confrontation between the Soviet Union and pro-Russian policies, but Turkey has turned away from an aggressive policy towards the Caucasus and practically does not pursue any policies beyond Turkey itself [in this direction]. For a long time two other forces have been active there – Islamists and other networks. Therefore, from the point of view of the real state of affairs, Armenia practically means nothing for Erdogan and Ankara.
America is pushing for an escalation of the Karabakh and Turkish-Armenian conflict, while Ankara strongly opposes this, understanding that in the situation in which Turkey now finds itself, there is no desire and now goal or meaning in opening a new front and creating new tensions. Therefore, under the current government there is no pursuit of such a course of developing Armenian-Turkish relations – there can be no positive nor negative development,” he noted.
According to Dugin, Russia has no plans in Turkey, but Russia has plans in Syria. Russia is planning to fight to the end in Syria, that is, fully restore Assad to power in Syria and turn Syria into a regional base for Russian geopolitics:
“For this, it is of course necessary to construct some kind of model among ones allies. Armenia is the single most serious ally of Russia. It is part of the Eurasian Economic Union and the Collective Security Treaty Organization, that is, we should have a unitary system of missile and air defenses and integration on all levels, including nuclear defense and the nuclear umbrella which we guarantee Armenia. Accordingly, these actions take place in the framework of deploying a system of strategic security around Russia in relying on its allies. Armenia belongs to this first and foremost. But this is not because we are planning some kind of aggravation of Turkey or, moreover, a war. Absolutely not.
Russia has simply gone beyond its borders in terms of influence. We have declared our goals. Our goal is the liberation of Turkey from American influence and Qatar-Saudi-Arabian ISIS, while we simply manifest ourselves as a pole of global politics. Of course, Armenia is 1oo% on our side from a military-political point of view. But this doest not mean that this is done against Turkey. Turkey is playing its own game and therefore this real defense is in fact built against NATO. To the extent that Turkey is a NATO member, this defense is directed against it, but not against Turkey as a nation-state, but against NATO as a hostile bloc which wants to regain global hegemony.”
In the opinion of the political scientist, Russia does not consider an alliance with Armenia as something directed against Azerbaijan, and does not consider rapprochement with Azerbaijan as a step directed against Armenia.
“In fact, Russia drew up friendly relations with Armenia earlier than with Azerbaijan. Such historically developed after the collapse of the USSR. That is, Armenia, being a sovereign, independent country, nevertheless chose to remain in the orbit of Eurasian geopolitics, geostrategy, and economy. Now we see that this is institutionally anchored in the Eurasian Union and the CSTO.
Azerbaijan went a different path and oriented itself more towards the West, but Azerbaijan gradually understands that orienting towards other countries, in particular the US or Europe, which itself entails a number of problems, does not satisfy the interests of Azerbaijan. Therefore, Azerbaijan is seeking a path to return to the orbit of Eurasian politics. Russia supports this with pleasure. But this does not mean that this is in any sense at least a partial unfriendly move in relation to Armenia. Russia is incomparably greater than Armenia and Azerbaijan by all measures precisely just as the US is incomparably greater than Greece and Turkey and cannot play only on the side of Greece against Turkey and vice versa.
The West has installed its Atlanticist order. Russia is installing its own Eurasian order, where its participants are protected, play by the rules, and sit down at the negotiating table with the support of Russia and other regional states in order to resolve contradictions which, by the way, exist between Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. Where Russia is in a partnership with different states, and first and foremost post-Soviet ones, and not only in Syria, it creates the rules of the game within which regional tensions and even internal disputes unfold.
Thus, if we speak of a rapprochement between Russia and Azerbaijan, this should not be considered an anti-Armenian step simply because Armenia is in no position to dictate to Russia its regional policy. That’s it. Thus, this does not mean that Russia will sacrifice the strategic interests of Armenia. If it does so, then it will lose all of its friends and this can’t be,” Dugin summarized.